"68_carlos_radio" - читать интересную книгу автора (Castaneda Carlos)

is that one never really changes. As a European my mind is set, my cognitive
units are set, in a sense. I would admit only a total change. For me to
change would mean that a person mutates totally into a bird, and that's the
only way I could understand it. But I think what he means is something else,
something much more sophisticated than that. My system's very rudimentary,
you see, it lacks the sophistication that don Juan has, but I cannot pinpoint
actually what he means like, things like what he means that one never changes
really, there's something else, another process is taking place.

Q: Yes, it is difficult to focus on this. I think I remember don Juan's line
was, you flew as a man flies. But he insisted that you flew.

CC: Yes.

Q: There's another remarkable statement he makes. It is in a discussion of
the reality of the episode. He says, that is all there is in reality, what
you felt.

CC: Uh-huh. Yea, he, don Juan's a very sophisticated thinker, really, it's
not easy to come to grips with him. You see, I had tried various times to
wrestle with him intellectually and he always comes the victor, you know.
He's very artful. He posed once the idea to me that the whole, the totality
of the universe is just perception. It's how we perceive things. And there
are no facts, only interpretations. And those are nearly, I'm merely
paraphrasing him as close as I can. And perhaps he's right, the facts are
nothing else but interpretations that our brain makes of stimuli. So that
such whatever I felt was, of course, the important thing.

Q: Now, one of the aspects of what we normally call reality that seems most
important to us is that of coherence or consistency from experience to
experience, and I was impressed by the fact that the experiences you had
under peyote seemed to have in your recordings a remarkable coherence from
experience to experience. I'd like to question you about this. There is an
image that appeared in the experiences which you called mescalito. And it
seems as if this image appears again and again with great consistency, that
the general sense of the experience, the sound of it, the feel of it, is
very much the same from time to time. Am I accurate in saying that?

CC: Yes, very, very much.

Q: Well, how do you make sense of that fact?

CC: Well, I'd, its the, I'd have two interpretations. Mine being it's the
product of the indoctrination I went through, those long periods of discussions,
where instruction was given.

Q: Did don Juan every tell you how mescalito was to look?

CC: No, no not that level. Once I constructed, I think, the composite in my
mind, the idea that it was a homogenous and totally a protector and a very