"68_carlos_radio" - читать интересную книгу автора (Castaneda Carlos)

What sense do you make of these experiences now as you look back on them all?
What seems to have been valid about them and how was don Juan, do you feel,
seem able to control or predict what these experiences would be?

CC: Well, in as far as making sense out of them, I think as an anthropologist,
I think, the way I had done it, I could use them as grounds for, say, set up
a problem in anthropology, but that doesn't mean that I understand them or
use them in any way. I could just employ them to construct a system, perhaps.
But if I will view them from the point of view of a non-European man, maybe
shaman or perhaps a Yaqui, I think the experiences are, they are designed to
produce the knowledge that reality of consensus is only a very small segment
of the total range of what we could feel as real. If we could learn to code
reality or stimuli the way a shaman does, perhaps we could elongate our range
of what we call real.

Q: What do you mean by that, how does a shaman like don Juan code stimuli?

CC: For instance, in the idea that a man could actually turn into a cricket
or a mountain lion or a bird, is to me, this is my personal conclusion, it's
a way of intaking a stimuli and readapting it. I suppose the stimuli is there,
anybody who would take a hallucinogenic plant or a chemical produced in a
laboratory, I think will experience more or less the same distortion. We call
it distortion of reality. But the shamans, I think, have learned through
usage in thousands of years, perhaps, of practice, they have learned to
reclassify the stimuli encoded in a different way. The only way we have to
code it is as hallucination, madness. That's our system of codification.
We cannot conceive that one could turn into a crow, for instance.

Q: This was your experience under don Juan's tutelage?

CC: Yes. As a European I refuse to believe that one could do it, you see.
But...

Q: But it was a tremendously vivid experience when you had it...

CC: Well it was hard to say, it was real, that's my only way of describing
it. But now you see the things over, if I would be allowed to analyze it,
I think, you know, what he was trying to do was to teach me another way of
coding reality, another way of putting it into a propitious frame that could
turn into a different interpretation.

Q: I thought the passage in the book where these very different orientations
toward reality that you had, and don Juan had, the point at which it came
through most clearly to me, was the point in which you question him about
your own experience of apparent flight. And you finally came around to
asking if you had been chained to a rock, would don Juan feel that you still
had flown, and his answer was, in that case you would have flown with the
chain and the rock.

CC: He alludes, you know, that, I think what he means, what he meant to say